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Gary Watts’ Tenth Circle of Hell

Chuck Ponzi October 19th, 2007

For those readers just stumbling on this post, you should follow my previous posts that I have made regarding Gary Watts’ predictions about Southern California, and Orange County over the past 2 years… all of which have been stunningly wrong, that it’s hard to believe that he still gets paid to issue them. (and perhaps just as stunning that so many realtors - maybe as much as 90% of the locals - still hang on every word like it’s religion)

Gary Watts will Burn in Hell (October 2005)
Gary Watts will Still Burn in Hell (April 2006)
Gary Watts Pulls His Head Out Long Enough to Stick It Back In (July 2006)
Gary Watts And The Incredible Logic Shrinking Machine (August 2006)
Gary Watts… Ignorant Optimist or Deluded Sociopath? (October 2006)
Gary Watts… Where’s the Inversion? (October 2006)
Watts, Old Scoundrel, At it Again (February 2007)
Who’s The Fanatic Now? (June 2007)

Hank Paulson (US Treasury Secretary) recently stated:

“The problem today is not limited to subprime mortgages as the number of homeowners having trouble making payments on prime mortgages is also increasing,” he said.

The problem is not with the quality of the credit score, but with the ability to pay. For Southern California, incomes have not risen as fast as home prices, and therefore, home prices have no support at current levels. Just like a small-cap stock that can make fast and violent up-swings based on hype, they collapse when there is no buying support at the levels they had achieved and fall back into the stable pattern. The fact that this takes place over years rather than days shows just how “sticky” real estate prices can be, not how “strong” the real estate world is.

However, the discredited economist Gary Watts seems to delink the relationship of fundamentals against “values” This is what his most recent presentation underlines for us. His new Forecast for 2008 unfortunately excludes the type of prediction we have seen in the past, a percentage change in predicted median prices. Perhaps he has conceded that he can no longer accurately predict using his models (since it seems his models consist of nothing but charts that point up and to the right), or more cleverly, has decided that with the spankings he recieved over the past 2 years, he had best shut up and not say anything before the lawsuits start in earnest. (Coincidentally, I believe he should continue with the 15% to 17% “in the bag” predictions, as it would certainly bolster an insanity plea).

It would be good to review some of the “touched” participants of our current housing mania said about Gary Watts back when I first started covering his predictions:

“I would put a lot of weight in what he has to say,” added Sharon Boyd, owner of Rosegate Realty in Orange. “He looks at so many things, and he takes other economic factors into account, not just real estate.”

and

“He’s never been wrong,” said Cate Florey, an agent with RE/MAX Metro in Anaheim, who hands Watts’ reports out to clients.

They are not alone. Nearly every single realtory reads his reports cover to cover and photocopies them for their clients. I know, I have recieved too many hard copies to remember. Some agents even hand them out at open houses… part of the “buy now or priced out forever” tactic.

Unfortunately, his predicitons are often so full of disinformation that if you even turn a skeptical eye towards it, it crumbles like stale week-old bread. There is virtually nothing of value, and most of the “statistics” are nothing more than beliefs that seem to have popped into the author’s head as a good way to convince people… he either needs to hire a fact checker, or fire his current one. It’s a shame, really.

His most recent 2008 paper is mainly divided into several separate but disjointed parts. Part one being a schizophrenic view of history, while part 2 can only be classified as “Tin-foil Hattery”, and part 3 is some kind of solo circle-jerk. (God, look how rich we are!!!!!), and the remaining part 4, An economic outlook(?) titled “Why Our Economy Will Continue To Do Well!

Watts’ Schizophrenic View of History

In This section, 2 additional claims were made: 1. Had you bought in the beginning of the current “downturn”, prices have still gone up since then, so you would have made money.

While individual cases may be different… the reality is that the vast majority of homes bought after 2005 in Orange County would now sell for 10 to 15% less than their last purchase price. Some areas (like my community in Aliso Viejo) have seen price declines of approximately 20%.

2. Gary states: “Historically, housing downturns average 27 months so we may be near the end.”

Not a chance… later in his own document, he shows Orange County median home prices down from 1991 through 1996. That’s a 6 year stretch of consistently, every year, declining home prices. If we were to extrapolate that into the future, as if this were the same severity, we’re likely to see declining home prices until 2013. In fact, our housing bubble is much, much worse than the late 80’s in terms of affordability (incomes) and price-to-rent ratios (alternatives), so our fall could either be steeper, or longer to reestablish affordability. Never in history has a bubble been maintained, and this time is no different.

Tin Foil Hattery

Gary, once again, opens up his mind in terrifying fashion. I wonder… does he really believe that the media is a boogeyman out to get Orange County housing? Someone ought to check his meds.

We would do well to view our previous reference to Hank Paulson’s comments in the context of the speech he made:

Of the approximately 50 million outstanding mortgages in the U.S. today, approximately 10 million are subprime loans. Many have cited the statistic that 2 million of those subprime mortgages will reset to higher rates in the next 18 months. That statistic is true, relevant, and troubling, but it is not the complete picture of the risk going forward. Many of those borrowers will be able to afford their new mortgage payment or they will be able to refinance into another more affordable mortgage. Yet, the problem today is not limited to subprime mortgages as the number of homeowners having trouble making payments on prime mortgages is also increasing. And finally, the wide geographic variation in home price trends adds to the complexity of sizing this problem with any certainty.

Meanwhile, in Gary’s LaLa land, he quotes the following statistics

It may surprise you to know that sub-prime loans make up 5% of the U.S. total loan market, while Alt –A loans (those with credit better than sub-prime but less than prime) total only 8% of all loans.

If you have to wonder who has better information about the subprime market (the US Secretary of the Treasury or a Mission Viejo broker who gives sales seminars), please just trust me that Hank Paulson does. Just trust me on this.

Gary, it would indeed surprise me to know that subprime only makes up 5% of the total loan market, when a well-funded oversight group says that it comprises 20%. Where he gets his numbers from would make me call into question his motives in quoting that specific group or person. (he provides no reference to cross-check, as usual)

In similar fashion, Gary gives us a camel to choke on, pretending it’s a gnat:

Sub-prime loans in California represent only 25.7% of the total residential loans in the state. From the summer of 2005 through all of 2006, 43% of all California loans funded were in both categories of these sub-prime loans. Today, most of the problems arise in just one type of these loans - the Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARMs). How big is the problem? Not big at all! In the first quarter of 2007 in the U.S., 88.5% of borrowers with ARMs were not delinquent on their payments!

First, mixing US delinquencies with California subprime percentages is a problem. How do we know if it’s not substantially higher in California or Southern California? It could be higher, it could be lower, but there’s no context provided.
In fact, some areas are in much worse shape than others. Back in our review of the Santa Ana Subprime Squish Down, the OC register reported that more than 75% of the census tract that includes the portion of Santa Ana reported on used subprime loans. I can be confident in saying that that number will be lower in Newport Beach and nearby communities, but it’s possible that this wasn’t even considering “Alt-A” products as well. This is indeed the 10th circle of Real Estate Hell.

However, the biggest concern is not the delinquencies themselves, but the turmoil created by the failing of subprime lenders, the vast majority of which are (were) headquartered in Orange County, California.

The second problem is that 11.5% delinquency rate is actually a rare thing, not common. (it’s a common trick to fool common people by quoting the inverse relationship, such as 70% fat free!, or 97% rat hair free!) The fact that 11.5% of all ARMs would be delinquent in a single quarter implies that if every one of them cured that delinquency within a few months, we’d have churn of more than 50% of all ARMs within a year. That’s a crapload of people. A CRAPLOAD.

Gary tries to convince us that delinquencies are not that bad. Take a look at Rich Toscano’s historical tracking of NOD’s and NOT’s for San Diego (we’re not that far off in OC)

September 2007 Foreclosures SD

We are literally off the charts compared to the worst downturn we have seen in history.

Check out some recent stories:

Reuters: “Worst Housing Market Since WWII
Coloradoan “Real estate experts: Worst still to come
Chris Thornberg “The worst is in front of us, not behind us
Housing Predictor “Worst Housing Crisis Since Great Depression

The excesses of this latest binge have not yet been worked out. Because the clearing process for foreclosures takes so long (between 6 and 12 months), and the knock on effects have not yet been felt of the credit crunch, the worst is most assuredly about to come. With absolute confidence, I can say that 2008 will be much worse for housing than 2007. If it does not have as many headlines, prices will grind lower, and sales will slow considerably.

God, LOOK HOW RICH WE ARE!!!!!!!

The next portion of Gary’s work is a swimming in self satisfaction. The kind of gratuitous back-patting that will not only dislocate your shoulder, but likely break every bone in your arm, if not sever it completely.

In a fit of insanity, Gary has latched on that Boomers will save us.

They won’t. They are declaring bankruptcy in droves far outweighing their numbers, and bringing our social network down with them. Medicare and Social Security will need substantial additional taxes or benefit reductions. In fact, one third of boomers will have NO money for retirement… much less be able to trade up to a pricier locale. There’s a reason that low-cost locales have been havens for retirement. With most of the US substantially cheaper than Orange County housing, we’re likely to get a great outflux of boomers. Most can still cash out here with much more than it will cost to live somewhere else. Equilibrium in supply and demand will once again be reestablished.

Gary tries to convince people that billionaires will save us by moving to OC. Unfortunately, their wealth does not “trickle down” as Laffer might have though it would. Just as likely as an outcome is a “Banana Republic” of OC. If superwealthy want to live here, they’ll have to live with the trashy poor.

Gary wants us to believe:

We are the youngest of the home-building nations. History does repeat itself! Every country has gone through a cycle whereby it breaks into two parts: those who own a home and those who don’t.

Nonsense. Everybody builds homes, not select countries. There is no cycle that any economist has ever been able to identify. Our low population density lends us to build the kind of homes that we do. Until we reach the kind of density that other countries have, we cannot expect these changes to take place… and most importantly, these kinds of changes take place gradually over time, not all within 3 years like our bubble did. There are certainly some fundamentals that have increased demand, however these fundamentals (household formation, migration, housing stock) have moderated as expected due to the higher cost of housing. San Diego, in fact, has experienced net outmigration. With the lending industry taking a beating, OC is likely to have a severe outmigration in the coming years. There are no other industries poised to take its place.

When this happens, rental rates begin to soar. We are in the beginning cycle of this event, as evidenced by the fact that the national rental rate increased 5.3% in the last 12 months. OC rents have risen 6.1% in the past year and 6.5% for LA. Since 2001, the rise in rental rates has easily outpaced inflation.

More nonsense. Rental rates are based on a relationship of housing stock to population. With a net outmigration imminent, flat to declining wages, and a recession beginning there is a good likelihood that rents will stay stable. However, rental stock has been substantially upgraded in the past few years with low-cost money, so it stands to reason that rental rates would have moderate growth in the coming years.

All in all, if you don’t own in 2007, you’re not missing the boat. History does not repeat itself, but it sure rhymes. You’ll likely be able to pick up a house cheaper in 2009 than 2008, and 2008 than 2007.

Gary also picks some interesting stats:

Consumers have $5 trillion dollars in liquid cash sitting in banks and savings and loans!
In 2006, households’ net worth rose 7.4% and now exceeds $56.2 trillion dollars!
Homeowners’ real estate equity is $10.9 trillion dollars – representing a 59% equity position!
The value of individual stocks and mutual funds held by individuals grew to $10.4 trillion dollars!
Other assets held by individuals include:
$ 3.2 trillion in bonds and credit instruments - $1.1 trillion in insurance reserves
$ 6.7 trillion of equity in non-corporate businesses - $11.1 trillion in pension funds
$ 2.5 trillion in 401K’s – plus $10 billion in loose change in homes and cars!
The rich and super-rich saw their assets surge 11.2% last year, to $37.2 trillion dollars!
(Boeing’s “mobile mansions” are private wide-party jets being customized at $150 million each!)

The superrich notwithstanding, the average family has actually seen their liquid net worth shrink considerably. In contrast, only homes have increased in value (which makes it difficult to monetize since you can’t sell off portions of your house to pay your bills, while portions of a stock portfolio or savings can). Most of increases to net worth have been at the high-end of the net worth, increasing the income disparity in the US.

Gary wants us to believe that these wealthy are giving this money to their children and they are spending it on homes. While I’m skeptical (like all things Gary says that appears to be pulled out of his ass), it’s possible that this could have a small impact on superwealthy enclaves. Still, it’s not going to save Santa Ana, Anaheim, or Garden Grove, or Aliso Viejo for that matter.

Why our economy will continue to do well!

It won’t. Gary hasn’t done any real research, and I’ve exploded this myth in previous postings. Southern California’s economy is in for a rough ride for at least the next 18 months, and the best thing to do now is liquidate, hunker down and look for buying opportunities coming up.

The tables of data tha he includes are a laugh. Here are a couple of the problems
1. He contradicts himself from earlier data (prior year appreciation, and length of downturns)

He picks 1970 as a starting point. (it’s a market bottom, and to our current top, it should be 8.9% p.a)

The starting point is very important:

If we pick 1981 as a starting point, it’s 6.7% p.a.

If we pick 1990 as a starting point, it’s 5.5% p.a.

The easiest way to lie is through statistics. Typical peak to peak and trough to trough appreciation is about 5 to 6%. That’s pretty good, but in an era of moderate inflation, it’s not that great. Real estate can be a good investment, but not if you buy at the peak. That’s what Gary’s asking you to do.

2. The totals that should sum, don’t

He needs to get himself a fact checker, and someone who can write his stuff for him. It’s pretty bad. A basic excel class can help.

3. Average Appreciation rates are not properly compounding, so give off a false positive bias

See #1. He just takes some numbers and averages them… no compounding. Either he’s an amatuer or patently deceptive. You decide.

All in All

It’s terrible research. It shows no regard for actual facts, history, or an ability to critically analyze. Anybody who buys his analysis is not getting their value. it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on.

There will be a time to buy in the future here, but now is not that time. Now is the time to sell (still).

The fact that Gary whiffed in 2006 (forecast 15 to 18%, actual 3%), and is about to get trounced again in 2007 (forecast 7 to 8 percent, actual likely slightly negative), and with a deepening credit crisis, any forecast that includes a positive number is just plain laughable.

I’ll leave you with a quote from Etrade’s President, Jarrett Lilien :

Our issue is that the value of high-quality loans is underperforming.

That, my friends is the essence of the problem. Many cannot afford the houses they are in now. Those same people are not going to save the housing market… they are going to crash it. It’s not a subprime problem and it’s not going away.

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18 Comments »

Comment by San Diego Insider
2007-10-19 16:22:39

My dog is more accurate than Gary Watts. I’m an agent who has been in the biz for 18 years and I will tell you that agents don’t really believe much of anything anymore. They regurgitate what sounds good so they don’t go deeper into depression. The clueless and the ruthless just use what ever propaganda they can find to hand out to people hoping someone will believe it.

 
Comment by Snacker
2007-10-20 00:06:42

Great article! I’ve noticed there seem to be fewer real estate cheerleaders like Gary Watts as the reality of this market sinks in. I have to admit, I find it quite enjoyable to read what these people write as they squirm to find a justification to buy more real estate even though they were totally wrong and the market is dropping like flies. It’s like watching a liar get caught telling a lie making stuff up as they stick their foot in their mouth!

 
Comment by sunsetbeachguy
2007-10-20 06:46:18

Chuck:

Thanks for getting this post done. I appreciate your efforts to at least counter his junk.

Don’t forget the great hit on Lansner’s OCR blog, where he admitted he didn’t calculate percentages correctly and understated foreclosures in the market by two decimal places.

The comments were pretty funny in response to that.

An economist who publishes a report with a math error should be fired.

Comment by Las Vegas Guy
2007-10-29 19:24:09

Seriously. How can you take a report and its author seriously when they obvious don’t proof read their own work, or bother to double check it? Will probably end up working for HUD soon…

 
 
Comment by luke
2007-10-20 16:04:46

Chuck, great stuff! heres some more from gary in an email exchange i had with him.
Luke Said: (Aug. 7th, 07)

Gary,
I first heard you on Bruce Norris radio show and couldn’t believe what you
were saying. You have said in the past that your forecasts are based on
pure economics. This is a little unsettling. I feel terrible for the
realtors who follow you and those they sold homes to, who are now calling me
asking me to buy them for what they owe. Obviously I cant at the price they
owe. You should be ashamed of the path you’ve led the industry down as I
know many realtors who swear by you. If the simple fact that 1 trillion
dollars in loans were adjusting in 07 wasn’t enough, then I don’t know what
is. Clearly you have studied economics much more than most (myself
included), but it hasn’t helped your cause this time. You’ll need bill
clinton to help you wiggle out of this one.

Luke

Gary Said: (Aug. 7th 07)
Luke,

American homeowners have $56 trillion of net equity in their homes so $1
trillion of loans resetting is not going to cause a major problem - except
for a few of those homeowners. Last month the median price of resale homes
in the U.S. went up 3.8% and 36 states reported a decrease in foreclosure
activity last month versus 24 states the month before. I look at the long
term and overall we are healthy except in a few areas. If you are living in
one of those areas, then you are feeling their pain but it is not a
wide-spread problem that will hurt housing in the long run.

Luke Said: (Aug 7th 07)
Gary,
I think its fairly obvious why median prices have gone up. Those properties
in the higher end of their market are the only ones selling. Those at the
lower end aren’t moving whatsoever. 56 trillion of net equity means nothing
until their homes have actually sold and they realize their appreciation.
Besides much of that equity has already been spent out of their helocs. I
guess time will be the best indicator, but if the last few weeks are any
indication it’s not looking great for your forecasts. How can a family
earning 60k a year (on the high side) in oxnard, ca make the mortgage
payments on a 500k loan that they bought in 05? We are beginning to see
entire streets foreclosed on or being short sales in parts of ventura
county. I am sure it’s far worse elsewhere. These same properties that
were sold for 500k or more in 05, are maybe worth 250k to an investor. It
just doesn’t make sense. Something has gotten completely out of whack.
Look for home prices in southern california to recede to 2002 to 2003 prices
if not lower over the next few years. Even then they wont be affordable
based on our median household income.
No further response on this conversation

Next Conversation
Luke Said: (Sept 7th 07)
Is Gary still sticking by his midyear outlook of “neutral” for the real
estate market? I love his outlook for the rest of the year. I am sure it
is right on!

His Outlook:
Third Quarter:
“Here is where we should begin to see some improvement. The not so serious
sellers will begin to leave the market by late September and inventory

numbers should begin to decline. If the economy has truly slowed down, the
Fed may make their first interest rate cut and that will spur the homebuyers

back into the market. Prices will hold steady.

Fourth Quarter:

If interest rates are cut and buyers do come back into the market, this will
be a very busy quarter. Housing prices should begin to rise

and with the media reporting new activity, buyers that have been sitting on
the fence will enter the market. As the year comes to a close,

we will have weathered the storm of sub-prime lending, foreclosures and
start feeling pretty good as we head into the election year!”
Donna Said: (Sept 7th 07)
So far each quarter has pretty well gone the way he thought. The credit mess
should clear up in 30 to 60 days and end of this year will be pretty good.
Luke Said: (sept 7th 07)
Awesome,
Ill take your word for it. Let me know when you purchase a property, and
how well it does. Certainly 60 days will be plenty of time to iron out this
credit mess….

Donna Said: (sept 7th 07)
Gary acquired 16 properties this year. He is converting them into tri-level
condos in Costa Mesa and he is planning on bringing them to the market
around the mid-October.

Next Conversation:
Luke Said: (Regarding Gary’s 3rd quarter synopsis)
Where is Gary’s mid year forecast, you took it off your website. Seems like hes finally realized we are in a down market, but I love the new quote that he “is confident that real estate will once again make a rebound in the very near future.” He’s been in denial for the past year 2 years, and now he’s quickly gone to admission (barely), followed closely by optimism. This is unbelievable. I am sure you guys know about socalbubble.com. they will have some new updates on garys stuff. Fortunately more people now follow that site than listen to gary.

p.s. since you took it off your site, can I get a copy of his mid year 07 forecast, and even better yet, his first of the year forecast. Also, any info on those luxury townhomes you have would be great. I would like to pick a couple up as flippers.

Gary’s Response:
None!

Comment by Chuck Ponzi
2007-10-22 07:51:43

For all:

It’ll be interesting to note a few things:

Gary said in this email that there was 56Trillion of Net Home Equity.

Consider for a moment, that if this were true:

1. The total stock of housing units in the US. is about 116 Million. This would mean that each US house has $484K in Equity. With a median price of Mid 200’s, this is pretty much impossible.

2. The entire US Capitalization of US stocks is about 12 Trillion, with the entire world investable market cap is just over 25 Trillion. (Per Charles Scwab) That would mean just the home equity of Americans is worth more than twice the investable capacity of the entire world.

3. Meanwhile, the total value of the entire US Housing stock (including owner-occupied and rented) is estimated at just about 20 Trillion (per Freddie Mac, 2007). Likewise, Freddie Mac says that the total US mortgage debt is 9.8Trillion, leaving 10.9Trillion Home Equity (August 2007 estimates). This would mean that more than 10% of all home equity will be resetting within the next 12 months, and quite possibly much more since many arms were for low-equity borrowers.

In short, it seems that Gary Watts pulls statistics out of thin air, with absolutely no relationship to reality.

How does this guy still get speaking engagements?

Chuck Ponzi

 
 
Comment by Erik
2007-10-22 00:04:49

Chuck,

Thanks for giving this idiot the shaft, once again, by simply contrasting the facts with his fantasy. I remember reading a report from Gary Watts back in 2005 when the absurdity in the RE Bubble had begun to reach the stratosphere. He made statements regarding macroeconomic conditions (namely, how we’re all so damn rich in Southern California that our incomes will afford ANTHING, and his ludicrous reasoning behind the supposed infinite demand for housing in the region). I wasn’t an Econ major in college, but you don’t need a degree in Economics to figure out that nearly all of this arguments relating to market fundamentals are completely baseless, incorrect, or just plain fabricated. Reading his subsequent reports (especially the most recent), in the context of the pending real estate disaster, only one person comes to mind that shares his audacity and delusion: our old friend Baghdad Bob!! I’m still waiting for an agent to email me a copy of this latest reports and try to pump me up about the buying. Initially, I will laugh hysterically and share the email with my friends, but then I might start to feel sorry for learning that someone can possibly be so naïve and/or stupid.

 
2007-10-22 08:25:24

The U.S. seems to get more crowded.
My freeway trips are worst seemingly every time.

Wher eI am at everyone keeps getting into the Southland of Southern Cal.

This indicates to me a demand. As most who can, would consider buying a house.

Last I checked the land seems to be shrinking. Or is that just more houses filling in the desert areas around L.A.?

Ooops, my bubble friends would warn me that these homes are not selling. Or are going for firesale prices.

Some are buying though:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01089.html

But fundamentally, the vast majority of bloggers and publishers seem to be biased.

This is the kind of fervor that goes on in politics. As if the bubblistas are hoping for a crash and burn.

I assume some are sincere in just wanting to wait for a good time to buy.

But the trap that most get into is that of speculation. The Bubblistas love to hammer on the flippers who profitted (many did not profit) during the run up.Yet, just like the flippers were speculating, so are the people waiting to buy (which as I mentioned I think there are not many of them in this forum).

The market has always gone up and down and back up,etc. When it doesn’t we need to all run for the hills, the end will be coming.And I do not see these so called experts packing yet. And, if they were so sure of themselves they surely would be on a road trip!Why are they so engaged in this topic?
~Tim

http://www.houseblogger.com/ho.....index.html

Comment by Chuck Ponzi
2007-10-22 09:14:16

And, your point is?

Houses are right now going for firesale prices on the fringes. It’s imploding inwards as predicted.

We can’t be going back and explaining everything if you haven’t been reading for 2 years… please, keep up with us.

Chuck Ponzi

As an aside, Tim, how does one report the facts in an unbiased way when the facts themselves are biased?

Comment by We Help-U-Buy Guy
2007-10-22 16:28:12

Hey Chuck,

House on the fringes have definitely imploded. Made an offer on a bank owned house in Mira Loma recently. Asking $499K for a 4800 sqft house. That’s basically $100/sqft.!! This is a nice house and is only three years old, you can’t build it for $100/sqft.

Did a search for a specific type of house in Ladera Ranch today. 15 homes met the parameters. 4 were bank owned!!! Over 25%. It’s gonna get ugly. I told my client that every day he doesn’t buy a house he’s saving money.

Comment by sunsetbeachguy
2007-10-22 19:20:12

Hmm, isn’t that what we told you would happen?

What did we get from you? IIRC, derision…

Comment by Chuck Ponzi
2007-10-23 08:11:45

SSBG,

To be fair, Brad has been very fair and even handed. Never once has he derided anyone about not buying a home. Just because he sells homes, doesn’t mean that he’s pressuring people. Remember, they go to him because they get 2% rebate on buying a home. I’ll be buying a home with Brad when I do.

He never once said that it wasn’t possible… he just didn’t think it’s likely that prices would fall substantially.

He’s not alone. There are many more, even many who know better who think that the credit event is just going to blow over in 6 to 8 months. Many of these are the same that vehemently denied the existence of a bubble.

There are also those who still swear by neg-am loans, even though very few of them have recast yet… an almost certain financial suicide for anyone who has a recast in the next 5 years. Sometimes people wake up over time rather than all at once.

Gary derided us, Brad just didn’t know raed the blog to find out. That takes guts when your livelihood depends on it, if you ask me. There are far too many agents who would rather stick their head in the sand and pretend the downturn hasn’t happened. Just look at all of the happy talk still. Just wait until 2008 to break their spirit. When the recovery gets postponed to 2010 or 2011, then you’ll see people start falling off.

Chuck Ponzi

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Minnesota Nice
2007-10-25 21:24:29

Chuck said:

“As an aside, Tim, how does one report the facts in an unbiased way when the facts themselves are biased?”

Easy, Chuck. Tim has the courage of his convictions. To paraphrase Colbert, Tim will believe the same thing in 2008 that he believed in 2006…no matter what happened in 2007.

Besides, the article he links to talks about properties going to vulture investors for half their original asking price. If I could get a decent property for half the asking price, even in most bubble areas, that would be close enough to any possible bottom that I would be stupid not to at least think about swooping in. Barring some Black Swan event, there is an “intrinsic value” to property.

The problem is that most sellers won’t or can’t list at half off, let alone accept anything even close. Many buyers still see 5-10% off list price as a bargain. Sure anything is a bargain when I think I can make 10% a year on some other schlub’s money. But when I don’t think that is possible or reasonable, I will look at buying through a different lens. As long as a property is priced right, it will sell. Pricing right is wholly based on the psychology of the moment.

Namely, in a rational world, house payments would reflect at bare minimum, the discounted cash flow of what I will be forced to pay for adequate shelter to protect me, my family, and my possession, all of which can be considered a classic fixed cost. When I pay more to buy a house than the DCF of rent, I am either a) paying for more “luxury” or b) paying for stability (as long as I pay my mortgage, the bank can’t evict me at the end.) But we don’t live in a rational world and house values can be based on more. I may spend more than above, and the excess can be characterized as investment, or alternatively speculation. If there is no speculation, and if the cost of shelter rises higher than inflation (however defined), I have made money on my investment. If it rises slower than inflation, I generally lose.

But humans are simultaneously greedy, predictable, and self-aware. We recognize our own shortfalls, attribute them to others, and therefore “speculate” on how others will react to the same environment. If we think another sucker will come along and believe a bigger sucker is coming down the pike, we’re willing to be a sucker ourselves. The key is recognizing when you are the first or last sucker to the table, or somewhere in between. No matter where you are, you don’t have to sell at the precise top or buy at the precise bottom. The key to wealth (if that is your goal) is to be consistently “almost right.”

 
 
 
Comment by Andy
2007-10-22 15:21:22

I Have to add myself to the list of folks who feel Gary Watts is a legend (only) in his own mind. I have never seen or heard a word from him that I can subscribe to, and unfortunately like some of the other commentators have stated, local Realtos listen to him like he knows something one couldn’t have just heard on any given morning on CNBC or Bloomberg. I must give him credit though if he is in fact getting paid to expound on matters on which he has little expertise and even less accuracy. Certainly NOT someone to rely upon in any way.

 
Comment by John W
2007-10-23 12:59:30

I’m sure anyone who listened in 2006 heard: It will be “Heaven in 2007″. Now it’s “Great in 2008″, more people are saying now “It will be fine in 2009″ But I say “When? 2010″. GW and anyone who listens to this babble is a few clowns short of a three ring circus.

Comment by Chuck Ponzi
2007-10-23 14:01:22

Yes,

Intelligent and thoughtful analysis.

Must.

Rhyme.

Or.

Not.

Be.

True.

 
 
Comment by ProblemWithCaring
2007-10-26 16:04:17

Comedy Gold!!

Hi-lites (besides attempting to counter absudities with reason at all):

“and part 3 is some kind of solo circle-jerk. (Gawd, look how rich we are!!!)”

“If you have to wonder who has better information about the subprime market (the US Secretary of the Treasury or a Mission Viejo broker who gives sales seminars), please just trust me that Hank Paulson does. Just trust me on this.”

“While I’m skeptical (like all things Gary says that appears to be pulled out of his ass), it’s possible that this could have a small impact on superwealthy enclaves.”

OK the last one was iffy, but by then I was in hysterics.

 
Comment by Sean
2007-11-30 11:25:41

Being one of the followers of GW I was of course impressed with his “prophecy” in the 90’s that made him look God-like. Today I have Millions of $ in mortgage debt and tomorrow I will be 30 days late on my way to loosing 3 of my properties. Got greed-crazy and it’s gonna unwind now. This wouldn’t have been bad except that I held on for too long expecting I could resolve the problem of owning property that no one wanted. So now I am broke and burdened with millions of dollars in mortgage and credit card debt. I couldn’t care less than I do about what GW thinks about my situation and the situaion of many like me who relied on his information as “Gospel”, I do care that it has now affected my wife and family because of the financial position I have put myself in. I am, though, smart enough to learn from this experance and start playing the RE game in a smarter manner. Sean “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice uuhh I won’t get fooled again” George Bush

 
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