Anyone still thinking of leaving?
Chuck Ponzi August 7th, 2008
An often discussed topic here has always been the high cost of living in California versus the benefits it presents. I have often thought about moving out of state, anyone else entertaining the idea?
Now that the meltdown is in full force, are there still many reasons for leaving?
Here are a couple I can come up with:
1. Even with prices falling +30%, Southern California is still one of the more expensive places to live in the US.
2. The terrible economy means fewer jobs, the reason most of us came here in the first place.
3. Freeways are still clogged
4. Taxes are still high.
5. The state is undergoing a fiscal crisis, almost assured to mean even higher taxes
6. Maybe it’s my perception, but violent crime seems to be on the uptick
7. We still have the worst school system in the country.
8. Prop 13 ensures the rich a great tax subsidy.
On the flipside, I can think of some reasons to stay:
1. Cali is probably going to come back and have more jobs…
2. You can get a double double protien style with no onion pretty much any time, any where.
3. Housing prices are falling faster than the OC register and Lansner can report that we’ve hit a bottom.
4. The weather, you know. It’s not that bad.
5. Where else can you work for the state and get paid minimum wage?
What do you think?
“#1 animal style no pickle with a root beer” is probably the main reason I stay. that and surfing in the am and snowboarding in the pm of the same day is hard to beat.
Now come on, you know that doesn’t happen very often. I did it ONCE just to say that I I did it (except I skied instead of snowboarded), but it took so darn long to get to Mt. High that it’s not something I would want to do regularly.
lol, see my comment below, I agree.
I can’t speak to California in general, but I’ll comment on SD. (I ain’t goin’ anywhere.)
SD will be a disaster for a couple of years but it will come back. The weather is too good and over the last 15 years SD has changed from a sleepy, oversized beach town to what Robert Shiller would refer to as a “glamour” city. While we’re not on par with NY, LA or SF, we’re certainly in the same ballpark as Boston, Chicago, etc., and with much better weather than the latter.
The problem is, and has been, housing prices. As housing prices continue to fall, housing will become more affordable, buyers will suck up the inventory, and this mess will be closer to being over. But that’s probably still a couple of years out. The bubble was just too big to fix quickly.
While I think prices generically in SD have another 15%-20% to fall (to get us to a 40% peak-to-trough decline) in the median p/sqft., I don’t think the price-to-income ratios or price-to-rent ratios will revert all the way to previous averages. Why? Again, the city is simply more attractive to more folks today than it was 15 years ago. (We can debate as to whether this should be the case, but I think it is.) This will get reflected in some sort of additional housing premium relative to the past.
So, no I have no plans to move. And while there’s a lot of pain ahead, SD will bounce back… eventually.
No doubt, CA has great weather, however is it really worth the price? I’ll take rainy days over a lower quality of life any time. There are far more problems that outweigh the few good things. And even though its possible, who really surfs in the AM, and skis in the PM? With the traffic and hassles one endures to make that happen, that seems hardly like a day off. To surf in the winter you need a full suit (shrug, spoiled Maui boy here, now living in South Central Alaska where the skiing is phenomenal)
SoCal is attractive for people from out of State. I lived in HB (but never bought the ridiculous white sticker for my car) from birth in 1970 to 1989, then back again from 1998 to 2001. I was told growing up by teachers, parents that I live in the BEST place on the planet, and I used to think so. Then I moved to the following places: Hawaii, Washington State, Alaska. Now SoCal is the worst place I have lived for all the reasons Chuck Ponzi mentions, and a few more. Granted, I do not believe that SoCal is a horrible place to live, but I don’t believe you get what you pay for there. I think that Californians weigh in the “Cool” factor when they justify the costs. I shed that that feeling when I moved to Hawaii at the age of 19 (wet suits are not as cool as year round trunks, lol), the cool factor is 10x that of California. Now cool factor to me is the large home on a large piece of land in a VERY beautiful neighborhood here in Seward Alaska. We have 0 debt other than the Mortgage, and we have always paid cash for everything in the 9 years I have lived here. I’m 38, snowboard in the winters (28 years of surfing and it was time for a change) and plan to retire here. If I needed to I would move back to Hawaii, or Washington, before concidering California. 4 of my 5 brothers who moved out of California feel the same way, as do many of my friends.
Maybe the difference is that you need to grow up there to not appreciate it? hmmmmm……
Note: I work for the State of Alaska, we all got an 11% pay raise this year, back paid from 1 year ago. We have no State income or Sales Tax, and we are all receiving $3200 cash for every man woman and child resident this year from our PFD. Thank you big oil.
P.S. You’re being paid $3200 a year because they’re incrementally destroying your state, and making changes to the environment that will impact the health of your children and grandchildren. I’m not sure that would be the trade I’d make, but hey, that’s me.
You should do your homework next time you claim Alaska has an unhealthy environment, nice try.
They are making an impact over 1000 miles away from my (and many others) home in no mans land (Dead Horse, the North Slope). My kids are safe, the water and air where I live is 100x cleaner than in California, that is for sure. There is 0 smog in our (or any) little town, we get our water from a nearby glacier fed stream. Alaska has the cleanest water in country. My kids are way better off here and safer here, it is a wonderful place for them to grow up and much safer in many ways than SoCal. The last time I lived in SoCal, 1998-2001, Huntington and Newport Beach had numerous beach closings due to pollution. It was pouring out of the SA river jetty. Is that still happening? Of course Labor Day weekend the toxic levels would somehow drop until Monday morning.
The freeways in CA alone are off gassing WAY more than the oil companies do here. Driving any support vehicle any where near an oil field here is under VERY strict anti-pollution guidelines. The same goes for drilling. LOOK IT UP! Also just go for a drive down to San Pedro some time. What a mess of smoke stacks, chemical vats etc, etc. And that is just one industrial place in SoCal, there are many more.
Its not like there is a shortage of pristine land here, not at all. Alaska is 1/3 the size of the lower 48 states, yet our population is 680 thousand people (CA alone is 38 million). It will be a long, long, long time before we “Destroy Our State”. Most communities are not even on a road system (mine is, thank god).
I think I have said enough, but here is more ammo to debunk your thoughts below:
When our tankers leave Valdez, where are most of them headed? Long Beach CA, to the refinery. We are just quenching a thirst SoCal is requesting. CA are burning it up, not us. And have you looked out into the smog filled horizon in CA? Noticed any the oil rigs out there in the water? Would you have ANY problem receiving a dime of that, or are they keeping it all? Protest to tear them down, and if it works, see how much more that negatively effects CA’s economics. (Not to mention some the best SCUBA diving in CA, look that one up also)
$1200 of the $3200 was an “Energy Rebate” to assist Alaskans in heating our homes this winter. It is the first time for this rebate and likely the last. Thanks Governor Sarah Palin! Lets see what Arnold can do to help Californians this year. (He cant, there is no money in the coffers)
It is in the interest of the oil companies to keep Alaskans here. Almost every job here in some way keeps the oil flowing, even fast food workers indirectly contribute. It would be even more costly for them to relocate people here from the lower 48. Alaskans gladly participate and reap the benefits. You don’t have to pay us to live here, the $2000 per person dividend has never been this large. It just broke the record this year (and will for about the next five years).
Jen, California’s Environment is already polluted and destroyed. Yet, you pay through the nose to live there. I live in a temperate rain forest with the Kenai Fjords National Park on one side and the Chugach National Forest on the other.
Now who’s kids and grand kids are at risk?
I am definitely entertaining the idea, although I haven’t made up my mind quite yet. I plan to buy another house in 2-3 years, and by then I’ll have made the decision. My thoughts on your reasons:
1. True, and it will continue to be so. Even when the bubble has corrected fully, I expect prices to still be in the 4.5x income range, which is far higher than other areas.
2. Not a problem specific to SoCal.
3. This will get better, see #2.
4&5. This is probably my #1 reason for not wanting to continue to be here. As long as California has a liberal government, we’re likely to have high taxes and even higher spending, in addition to ridiculous laws and a horrible business environment. It’s only going to get worse as municipalities go bankrupt and business taxation gets worse. I also make more than the poverty level in income, and have savings, so I’ll personally likely get taxed even more brutally by the California legislature. It could get to the level of economic survival to get out of the state.
6. This will get much worse, as the state cuts down on services, the economy really slows down, and poverty really sets in. Again, a good reason to get out of the major cities and problem areas, and away from crime-supporting policies.
7. True, and with the unions, bureaucracy, and political incest, it’s probably beyond fixing.
8. Prop 13 ensures people who bought while the market was down get a subsidy (not necessarily the rich), and limits the damage the legislature can do via property taxes. The first part is grossly unfair, the second part is a huge benefit.
The upsides for SoCal, in my mind, are the weather, the richness of businesses and things to do in the major cities, and opportunities. The other argument for staying is inertia (local friends, connections, familiarity, memberships in local organizations, etc.).
We’ll see in a couple years if the benefits will out-weigh the downsides; it doesn’t look very good at this point, though.
Oh, and for the references to In and Out Burger: financial freedom vs. good cheeseburger, ummm, yaaa, thats a tough one ;-P
Few people are discussing the main reason California is truly dying, making leaving almost a necessity - INVASION. Illegal and even legal immigration is ruining the State. Once great cities are not toilets. It is impossible to reverse this trend. The fact is, California has terminal cancer. I’ve had many foolish people tell me immigration has made the country strong, bla bla bla. Yes, immigration from Europe made us strong! Immigration from a racist nazi like country such as Mexico is a take over, an invasion, not an enhancement. Now Korea and Central America is laying claims demographically on California. We are in a full bore demographic WAR. And war has no winners.
I guess I’m part of the problem.
I married a sexy Mexican senorita and have 3 kids as a result.
I agree with the negative impacts of the southern invasion, but you’ll never convince me 100% that there are no fringe benefits !
Mark,
I wonder sometimes if the lunatic fringe is right or just always the lunatic fringe.
I’m sure the Native Americans could argue that we’ve turned the place into a total trash heap as well. We’ve pretty much spoiled every natural wonder in the US, so they’d feel lucky if we just packed it in and piled back on the nina, the pinta, and the santa maria. Or the Mayflower depending on the case.
You can never make the locals happy. Never.
In the 1920’s, it was the Jews, Irish, and Italians. Now it’s the indians, chinese, and mexicans. Some things about humans will never change and fear of the unkown seems alive and well.
Chuck Ponzi
It’s only unknown to you chuck. Perhaps you should venture outside your Aliso Viejo neighborhood once in a while or watch the news. Then maybe you might actually know what you’re talking about, instead of just repeating tired old cliche’s. Just because you are nice to your nanny and gardeners doesn’t mean you know ANYTHING about the situation. So stop patting yourself on the back and thinking your holier than thou.
Jared,
Thanks for your tirade. Your conviction is appreciated. I’m glad to see they let you out of the asylum periodically.
Chuck
Chuck, LOL, the standard smarta** American come back. Smarta** is the new smart isnt it chump. There isnt a da*mn thing funny about war and swarms of hateful invaders marching by the millions demanding YOUR country as theirs. If you listen to much of the mexican radio stations (subcommando communication stations) it would be clear these people are organized, motivated, and taking action in a mass invasion. the only people that do not see all these are chump americans.
Hi Jared,
The situation is that California (and America) is sort of getting its just desserts with respect to illegal immigration. The failure to control illegal immigration is due to American political complacency and a lack of political accountability.
The barn door has been wide-open since 1984 - and it still is wide open today in 2008. The conservative estimate is that 10,000 Mexicans illegal enter the US and no one does anything about it except from some really intimidating Minutemen let me tell you.
I agree with you. 10,000 illegals a day is a huge problem by itself. The far bigger problem is that American citizens are not holding elected leaders accountable. They’d rather watch “Dancing with the Staahs”.
I have great doubts that the US will ever solve this problem satisfactorily. In my view every incumbent in Congress should be voted out of office in November regardless of party.
If Americans were smart, they’d register all of these illegal workers and force them to pay state and federal income taxes or leave. Pipe dream, I know.
Well, in the meantime, you’ll forgive me if I partake in as many fiestas as possible as we all wait for the 2nd Great Depression to slam into us at light speed.
I’m with you, Mark. I’m not Mexican (nor Latino), but I’m fluent in Spanish. I almost exclusively date Latina (whether from TJ or the South Bay) hotties. I’m also a partner in a couple of businesses in Mexico. I have no problems with the Mexican Invasion. Perhaps understanding them a bit better is helpful in this regard.
For the record, I have no problem with people emigrating from Mexico or any other country. However, it’s clear that everyone needs to pay their fair share of taxes. With that, though I would say that illegal immigrants are not the most broken thing related to our taxes. #1 would be Prop 13 and how it creates a tax subsidy for the wealthy. I’d rather have a normal property tax with an exemption for a single primary residences of a single taxpayer.
Also, the concept of depreciation of real estate? If the conventional wisdom is that real estate always goes up, why would we allow depreciation of real estate? I say let them eat cake, individual owners don’t get to deduct taxes, interest, and depreciation, so why should investors? If we’re serious about people owning their own homes, why isn’t the tax code favoring that?
Chuck
I married a Central American, and she 100% agrees. Unlike the spoiled uneducated American, Central Amercans generally understand the danger of Mexicans and run them out of town.
Definitely considering it now.
Great question. Yes. I’m thinking about it. I came to OC from the Netherlands in 2005 and thought that home prices were nuts then. I also could never quite get through my neighbor’s math of a $700K mortgage, a Ford Exploder SUV, 2 motorcycles, 2 jetski’s and a Lexus for the wife on a $120K salary, but oh well. I’m not wasting any more time thinking about that.
It’s now 2008 and the only housing “correction” witnessed in OC California are the foreclosures themselves. There have been NO notable price corrections. If there were, then we wouldn’t be observing pieces of sh&*t 4 bed, 2.5 bath homes still put on the market at $650,000 all the while the OC median income resides comfortably around $67,000 per annum. Yeah, let’s all buy a home 10 times our annual gross salary shall we?
No, let’s not.
Must admit that I love California’s weather compared to the Midwest or (ugh!) the Netherlands.
Funny anecdote:
The wife and I were going around our neighborhood (West LA) looking at houses yesterday (just for ideas, not shopping or anything), and were speculating on prices before we walked in (as usual). The houses we were looking at were nothing special, cramped lots, within 10 feet of neighbors, no yard, a few thousand square feet, etc. At one point, she capped an estimate at 2 million, because “anything over 2 million is getting ridiculous”. A laughed, then I laughed more as a thought about it. I mean, 2 million dollars; that’s a 400k down payment and $10,000 a month at 6%. That’s a mansion in rural America for a down payment, and a $120,000/year income just for the mortgage. Just getting ridiculous?
As a side-note, that particular house was listed at only 1.9 million, lol. You gotta just laugh.
I grew up in Long Beach and left in ‘95 to relocate to Western NY. At the time we thought the move was good, better schools, affordable housing, Finger Lakes region, yes it was a good decision then. Now I want to move back home and we visited during spring break. Stayed at a Residence Inn outside of Laguna-We could clearly see Catalina for 3 days-don’t EVER remember seeing it that well in all the 39 years I lived there. Our families live in San Diego and Santa Monica and I lived in Long Beach. I was shocked at how badly the homes looked in 90808 and I had forgotten how close houses are- we have 1 acre lots in W.NY. Still I am waiting and can afford to wait until market corrects itself- it’s gonna have to, I can’t imagine young people affording these prices. I visited the home I grew up in, a 1950s ticky tacky tract home now going for 600K. Yikes! But if you grew up where you could smell the ocean and run up Hwy 1 to Big Sur, San Francisco and just see the coastline, Yeah, I want to move back. Just shovel snow and drive on Black ice for 13 years………
I’m not planning on moving and, really, where would I move to? California’s unemployment is only a bit higher than the national average, and its not like the home prices everywhere else didn’t accellerate to ridiculous levels. And, while I could see the benefit of moving if I simply couldn’t afford to live here at all, I make a decent enough living that the choice is more on the lines of owning an certain sized house in a great SoCal neighborhood and owning a much bigger house somewhere else. I’d sacrifice the great weather and lifestyle here if it was the only way to own a home, but not for only 1000 to 1200 square feet of interior living space.
Well, different areas have different definitions of ‘ridiculous levels’. In SoCal, a small condo will cost half a million, and a small home roughly 750k starting. In less bubble areas (eg: rural), the bubble has made large houses on acres of land cost staggering amounts like 250k. Yes, they are both inflated, but there’s a large difference in real monetary amount.
I would need to be making more than 250k annually to afford a baseline house in SoCal, and while my dual income is good, but just not that high. That, to me, says I shouldn’t be living here. I don’t begrudge the people who make enough to buy a house in SoCal, though, and if you make that much and want to live here, enjoy.
I grew up in Fountain Valley - Go Baron’s - left in the 80’s but miss it - I sell in Florida now - I think the market is as bad as Cali
nice writing - I am going to add you to my rss reader.
Mike
http://realtorlinkback.com/
I am make an average income, with an average education (extremely high life lessons though). I am a white collar worker that came from from high pay blue collar background at a young age. I am not in debt other than an average mortgage (large home and property at 200k, in 2008). And with that said, I cannot afford the average home in SoCal, not even close.
So what is wrong with my picture? Why can I not afford to live in CA. I am even in the tech sector here, you’d think I could work in CA and make it happen. Is it really a requirement to have a 6 figure salary just to get the basics to live like the average Joe in CA?
Where I live now, I live a very comfortable life in an above average house and my wife is a stay at home Mom with two young ones.
The bottom line for all the posts here, that no one can argue, is that SoCal and even NorCal, the cost of living for a home owner ABOUT 10x that of the average Mortgage to Income ratio. Even with the prices dropping, CA is still pricing out average American home buyers. The speculators, the flippers and of course the Realtors, said “buy now, or you will get priced out!”. And they were right. They priced out future customers, and in the process liquidated their current debtors. No more customers, NICE JOB!
So, I left, my brothers left, and many of my friends left. And none of us are looking back. We all are living the dream in our new areas (mostly the green pacific northwest). I may seem sour, and I’d say I am, but I just love to watch from afar, as the BS piles higher and stinks up the place while I live in a wonderful large house and neighborhood. I work less and my commute is 2-3 minutes and NEVER any traffic. I come home for lunch with my family. Yes I am gloating, I have never been happier with my situation, and guess what?: California is not as great as I thought it was when I lived there, it was just an ego trip. I never thought life could be so easy, low maintenance, low hassles.
So keep the good weather (yes you’ve got me there) and the “view” of Catalina, the dry desert Island with a the crammification of Avalon and its newest Mexican gang citizens, draped in smog after the Santa Winds, throw a few oil rigs in the scene for flavor and enjoy.
I truly have a view that would knock your socks off.
FYI, both my parents still live there (Costa Mesa and Apple Valley) so I get to hear the great news from them on the goings on. They grew up there too, and they miss the old SoCal when there were nothing but orange groves and clean air.
Thanks Chuck Ponzi for the post, I thought you’d never ask. Even though I made my decision to relocate 7 years ago, I still love posting my experience and what leaving CA did for me. Its the main reason I read your blog, because I too saw this coming and used to tell the others (that now also moved away recently) what you share here. For the young adults starting their life there, it just isnt possible without a silver spoon in your mouth. The other option is to work your ass off 24/7 just to keep your head above water and live in a less than pleasant neighborhood. I wont raise my kids there.
I’ll be back to SoCal when if the heard thins and the charming small towns come back. It looks like that wont happen any time soon. In the meantime, poor me, it looks like we will get some rain this week on the Kenai Peninsula, oh what problems I have (lol), whoa is me.
Yeesh. I just accepted a position as a postdoc at the Salk and am moving out there in February from Austin, Texas. It seems like things are starting to hurt on the lower end of the market and we might be able to buy a place in the fall, but we’re talking a dinky condo. Sounds kind of rough out there. Any advice?
Rent for a while.
Find out why they did not hire locally, there may be a reason (dinky condo [aka apartment] maybe?). I doubt there is a shortage of workers in your field there, CA has pretty much every type of skilled person hanging around in hordes.
What makes me nervous is the two things that made the terraforming of SoCal possible in the 20th century - cheap and plentiful oil and water - are going to become increasingly scarcer in the 21st. I hope we haven’t taken the Los Angeles quality of life for granted, as the overhead and infrastructure required to maintain it will prove to be increasingly unsustainable. Anyone taking the long view would see that staying put will receive diminishing returns. In the short-term though, the Alt-A meltdown coming next spring will hit, what, 20% of the market as opposed to subprime’s 8%? It probably doesn’t matter where you live at that point. I’m stuck here, so I’ll enjoy the sunshine and green lawns while I can.
Your post reminded me of something I forgot to mention in my analysis: the lack of spending on California’s infrastructure. Even during the good times of the tech bubble and the housing bubble, the California legislature neglected to spend any money maintaining or upgrading the state infrastructure (water, power, etc.), and that’s likely to compound the deficit problems as the economy slows down. Even now we’re starting to get inundated with advertisements to conserve water because the legislature was too stupid and/or short sighted to upgrade the infrastructure to support the demand when they had the money. If we didn’t have businesses failing or fleeing the state in mass, we probably would have needed rolling blackouts this summer too.
Soon the government will need to raise taxes, and collect more money to be flushed down the black hole of entitlement programs, illegal alien welfare, and more government waste. I’m also enjoying it while I can, but it’s likely that at some point, I’ll get tired enough of California’s government flushing my money, and that will overwhelm the benefits of living in SoCal.
“Well, different areas have different definitions of ‘ridiculous levels’. In SoCal, a small condo will cost half a million, and a small home roughly 750k starting.”
Not quite. Even putting aside the troubled inland counties (where home prices have fallen another $1,000 in the time it took me to write this sentence), there are plenty of areas of North Orange County and the OC Foothills (Fullerton, Anaheim Hills, La Palma, Brea, Ladera Ranch, Lake Forrest) that are safe, have excellent schools and are w/in 30-40 minutes of the business hub around the John Wayne Airport where you can find a 2000 square foot home for just under $600,000 and a small condo for less than $300,000. And all of those areas I mentioned are within an hour drive of the beach in the summertime. I I’d recommend you check those areas out before giving up on So Cal completely.
30-40 minutes to the business hub. Do the math considering CA has about the highest gas prices in the country. X week, X year, minus that much time spent on the road (assuming the traffic doesn’t get any worse) and that adds up ($$$). An hour drive to the crowded beach in the summertime (2 hours round trip + parking fare), sheesh, when does the bleeding stop. Might as well just shell out the extra housing cost to live closer to work and the beach.
As mentioned above, the infrastructure is falling apart. Right now the CA prison system is being sued for over 8 Billion because the prisons medical facilities are substandard. And it looks like they will get it. That is yet another bill to add to the overwhelming CA budget shortfall. When was the last time state money subsidized YOUR medical bills? The wildfire crews, the water shortages, energy shortages, environmental considerations, and on and on and on….
MARK MY WORDS, ARNOLD WILL RAISE CA TAXES (AK Steve, 8-13-2008) whether he likes it or not (he doesn’t). I think he is waiting for a magic bag of money to fall from the sky, and things are just deteriorating. What other choice does he have? The CA democrat majority will go along with it for a while but when the corporations start heading for Nevada (no taxes at all) and elsewhere, the population will follow (it is already starting actually, Toyota is on their way out due to CA taxes and having to match high wages for their employees to live there). Then the general tax base will fall apart. Wow! What a scene, I’ll make sure I have lots of popcorn for this feature.
Chuck, and all, see the article at California Housing Forecast (californiahousingforecast.com) regarding “California’s Bleak Outlook”.
Schahrzad Berkland (the author and web site owner), is not a doomsday theorist like many of us. She is a successful and seemingly scrupulous realtor in San Diego. Her site is pretty unbiased, and shows the good and the bad of the SoCal economy. I am not sure what triggered her to write such a gloomy post, but she is very much a realist. There are some facts there for support. Check it out.
aksteve-
Schahrzad Berkland is an interesting character. I used to even have her on my blogroll.
As one of my previous posters put it: “She’s the Gary Watts of Bubble Bloggers”
I’ll leave it at that.
Chuck Ponzi
Ya, I can see that, especially when it comes to the SD area, she is usually pretty bullish. But she includes a fair amount of articles about the downside/downslide of California real estate as a whole. Many of her articles also deny we are at a bottom and encourages people to wait to buy. That is interesting coming from a Realtor wouldn’t you agree?
Anyway, I may be wrong about her, but my point is how her article is relevant to this this thread and supports your bullet items. I liked it.
It’s my impression that she has a hard time controlling her emotions when it comes to basic facts and hard analysis of the housing bubble. Most of what I read of hers was 90% conjecture. It was that her opinions were expressed as fact, and there was little academic rigor around them.
I also understand she got into a major tiff with blogger Jim the Realtor, which was later resolved, but there were some pretty harsh things posted on her site. Jim is one of the most level-headed agents in San Diego. If I remember correctly, SB was first a blogger and later an agent. To me she looks like a Gary Watts wannabe… of course who wouldn’t want to if you didn’t have to sell your soul? He makes good money from speaking engagements. Fortunately for the both of them, most (not all) agents are of the sunshine-gullible type.
I have family in Seattle; don’t know how they left Los Angeles but they did. I can’t stand their weather. It’s 5 PM, I am going to jump in the pool - can’t beat it!
Yep, its been established, California has better weather. BUT, what are you willing to pay for it? To me, its just weather. Id be willing to pay more for better weather, but it is just one factor of deciding where to live. A crappy place with good weather is still a crappy place. I live in a great place with the worst weather I have ever lived in. The rest of my surroundings, and bank account, make up for that very easily. And, its not like we don’t have any nice days around here, there are plenty and you appreciate them more.
And as for your pool, I hope you can afford the water in it and heating it in the winter. If so, great, more power to you. That means you can afford to live in LA. If I struggled, I could do it too. I would rather not struggle to live in that area, it is not worth it to me, not even for good weather.
I do like Washington, but not the Seattle area. It is a nice city to visit. The California exodus kind of ruined it, drove the prices and traffic up. Now Seattle is like LA, but with bad weather, might as well live in LA, I agree.
BUT there are some really great places to live around the rest of the State of Washington. South West Tacoma area is one of them.
Phyllis, I left LA for Seattle. Couldn’t be happier. I went from struggling to figure out how I would ever find a nice neighborhood, etc. for my family to landing in an awesome neighborhood with decent schools, and fantastic parks, good neighbors. Seriously, it was like a miracle. But don’t any of you other posters get funny ideas - I’m sure you wouldn’t like it. (And the summers are quite warm BTW. I’ll be hitting the pool with my daughter today.)
I spent 15 years in Tennessee, and have no desire to return.
Swarms of stinging insects (wasps, European wood wasps - hoo boy there are stories there, yellowjackets, hornets, etc).
Humidity you could swim through.
Ice storms in the winter that take your power out for 2 weeks.
A complete and total inability to find sushi.
Armies of idiots. Racists are only a subset of idiots here.
Difficulty finding white-collar jobs.
I’ll keep saying what I’ve said in the past… California offers plenty of revenue growth options due to its high cost of living. The jobs here pay expecting you to be financing (i.e. burning interest) a “normal” lifestyle.
If you wanna get ahead in California, live like a Tennessee redneck. Live in a trailer (you can get ‘em for $30k now, and space rental STILL costs less than property tax on $400kish homes!), air conditioning isn’t needed, you can drive the same car for 8+ years (not like it’ll rust out on you here), etc.
Live like this as long as you can put up with it, and save money for the future. Your rate of accrual while living far below your means, will most likely outpace that of someone living AT their means in a cheaper place. Quality of life in the meantime may possibly be another argument, but I’m happy enough…
ah, the answer: live in squalor and someday the tides will change in CA. I agree that day will come, its just gonna be some years, lots of them. Good comment.
I also agree that there certainly a lot of WORSE places to live than CA. The point here being how much are you willing to pay for it and is it worth the expense.
As for the idiot factor, you move to CA and still cant get away from them. Consider ALL the idiots that caused the current crisis. Everyone living beyond there means just to remain up to status so the neighbor’s don’t think you are lesser of a person. Anyone that gets a HELOC for other than maybe home upgrades or the like is… well …. ummm, ya an idiot (tried to put it lightly).
And trust me, at least when I lived in the OC back in the day, the racism very much existed but much more passive and subtle than in TN. Mexicans were looked at as mules to do the work that the average SoCal citizen wont do (I’d say the rest of the country has its hand in that also). The very large Vietnamese communities of Westminister, Garden Grove, Anaheim and nearby, despise whites, and even other asians. Or dress a highly educated black man in suit and send him in for a job interview in Newport Beach, Corona Del Mar, Irvine, HB (add to the list if you must) and see how far that goes. At least the chances of verbal abuse or worse are very low, but like I said its passive.
I will not answer to debates on racism to keep this thread on track (and sorry Chuck P. if this crosses a boundary, remove it and I wont be offended). My point being that SoCal is also the most racist place I have ever lived (I never lived in the south). Everyone just keeps it in the closet.
Da Fox hit it on the head. Surf before class, Snowboard after. And the Angels, they rock. The women too.
California has “the worst schools in the country.” Sorry friend, but in DC we really do have the worst schools in the country by every measure or list you care to find, and what makes it worse is that we on cost/pupil we also have the most expensive schools in the country. Imagine what you would be writing if you were here. Remember - DC: Worst Schools In Nation are Most Expensive Schools in Nation.
OK then, could you tell us all how well CA schools rank, including cost per pupil? I don’t even have to look to know it is close to the top of the worst list. Pretty sad considering CA has the second highest (and soon to be highest [IMO]) taxes in the country, at double the national average.
The cost of CA taxpayers educating illegals and children of illegals kinda hurts don’t it? And it dilutes the quality of the education of the tax payers’ kids.
I left So. Cal. in 2005 for the awesome Northwest. I live in Gig Harbor.. just west of Tacoma over the new Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Who knew that when I sold my house in Anaheim in 2005 that I nearly hit the top of the market. I LOVE it up here.. clean air.. blue skies..and everyone speaks English.. (added bonus). I lived in Calif. from 1961-2005. I found a part time job here and my new house sits on 1.5 acres.. (all for under 300K). Yeah, it rains in the winter time and we get a dusting of snow, too. You can’t beat this place for quality of living at the price.